By contrast, most directors don't have their own budgets, but need approvals from their VP to do just about anything. My boss even made mistakes. Facebook, Go to company page Until you can be honest with yourself (and it's not fun, trust me) you will be stuck doing what you're doing and your complaining will be the glue keeping you there. The point here is that I have more than once seen folks that were very talented and super stars get bumped for someone less talented but more vocal. With wide-eyed wonder he asked WHAT? I said whatever the @#$% your manager most needs you to do!6. I saw several far more technically skilled people in the group who deserved this that were passed over. I think that everyone has a bad year or 2 and you should not get worried about spending a lot of years in one level unless you have been on the same team for a long time.So my advice is1. You should be able to show the path to a goal, especially to collections of people who do not report to you. The CSPs are a good attempt to define each level, but anyone who is looking at the CSPs and saying I do that, and that, , but Im not getting promoted is almost certainly missing the point. Right now I am 56. And I'm going to tell you right now, I'm 99.9% sure what needs to change is you. Steven A. Ballmer Chief Executive Officer, Microsoft Corporation. I think one of the things that is frustrating is how opaque the promotion system really is. Up to that point the "what" you accomplish can get you pretty far and you get some wiggly room on the how. Microsoft Salaries 2023 | $164k-$4.9M | 6figr.com If you are in office, you will have lots of experience promoting people up to 62 but after that it's a rare event. Well, what about everyone else? That sounded like a complete crock to me. They are 100% star material. It's usually too late at that point. But my manager is communicating to me that it is very hard and I am likely to show patience for another year or two.I do not know how to confirm this without looking like whining. Also, never ascribe to malfeasance what may simply be due to incompetence. Seniority Levels in the Workplace: Types and What They Mean You must emphasize the goal of understanding how to improve, not just tagging a higher paycheck. They are trying to get attention from upper levels more harder then you. Here is my question, I don't trust that my manager will fight for me to get me to 63 for the following reasons:- The area I own is not big enough for a 63 but at the same time there is not other areas he can give to me given where we are as a team without taking away from my peers, something he would not want to do unless there is a big problem with a peer not delivering which is not the case.- Innovation - this leaves me with trying to come up with other areas that the team can focus on in addition to current goals to leap frog us and which I can own; so far even though some of my ideas are really good (according to the mgr) the timing is off (ie the team has not reached that level yet where my ideas would be practical to implement given the big ROI)In short I can't trust that this mgr will get me to 63 in a time frame that I would like to see it happen (provided that I nail the qualities you highlight for a 63) which leaves me with the following choices:-Sticking around and continue working on displaying 63 qualities until the above points change, and who knows how long that will take- leave for another team internally (which means a bit of time to establish myself again etc) but at the same it would give me more clear timeline of when I can say I am 100% delivering as a 63.-get external offers (eg from Google), bring it up with the mgr and thereby force a change (more responsibility) since leaving would hurt the team in at least the short term. Microsoft Software Engineering Manager salary levels ranges from 63 (SDE Lead) upto 80 (Corporate VP), with 80 (Corporate VP) level earning average salary of $4851k along with $3675k worth of stock options. A broad perspective matters.3) This is all about stack rank. How do levels compare? "Your Recently Promoted L63 Peers"? Thanks M$Underpay. Who cut and paste buggy shit all over the codebase and don't know some of the things that a good L62 should know. Mini: Great topic! But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around?"1. What is the average promotion velocity for non-technical fields? RIF in the SQL team? I came from .NET (no longer there), and there were plenty of Senior IC PMs and Devs.Are you in Test, Marketing or Documentation? Flip on the klaxons! There is always a manager who understands the underleveling of Office and old-Windows (hello Sinofsky - promos for all who stuck around regardless of merit!) Mini, as good as your writeup is, there is too much emphasis on this level promo business in MS, and I have seen my fair share of people that have been burnt by it. L65 took four years. If I was looking at reducing costs this isn't exactly where I'd set my sights first but again this is Microsoft we're talking about. Obviously, this is advice that you may not apply during the current hiring freeze, but keep it on your mind for the future.- At times the focus on the level may not be the most important strategy in the long term. The funding for our project stopped and our vendor team of 28 people have been asked to leave immediately. Taking the easy escape out like that, you are more likely to get into the same situation at other companies. I am a troll. I thought what I did was valuable but in the end, it wasn't.The Microsoft up or out policy is the prime directive. Punit Bhatia - Director - Sales - Apar Innosys Pte ltd | LinkedIn After all, if you think you are already ready, and your manager doesn't, there is probably some way you can improve that you don't understand -- this is something you want to figure out.6. How senior is a 'director' at Microsoft? - Quora Microsoft, Go to company page When your manager finally ask you to do X, you'll be nodding your head and saying, "yeah, totally, and here's my progress on X." The soft skills definitely matter. I have seen people turn it around. Hi,Now that the Annual review is approaching, I wanted to seek tips on justification putforth to the manager to move from L60-L61. Bruce Kasrel - Sr. Director, Research Win-Loss - Klue | LinkedIn did this post dieNo, the Mini-Electronic Brain did. If you want the longest Microsoft career possible, why advance any faster than you have to. Maybe." If it is "Absolutely!" I heard that promotion budgets are significantly reduced at below 65 level. For others, the picture will not be so clear and they may place more weight on perceptions or a set of isolated incidents. Your manager has to know that either you get promoted sometime soon or you will go and get promoted somewhere else. L63 guys are supposed to influence their entire skip level org. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. I was always righteously indignant when I encountered asshats and incompetence and I would rail against the losers to anyone who would listen, and then I would do whatever it took to drive my agenda through to completion.I focused 100% on producing vast quantities of superior quality work -- which endeared me to my management chain and opened up a crap-ton of doors at those early levels. But if your manager is undervaluing your work, and *that* is the factor that is making you unhappy, you can fix that. Reading all this makes me so happy I don't work at MS anymore. i asked him if he knew the absolute most important thing for him to do to get promoted. 83,000+ Senior Director jobs in United States (6,036 new) - LinkedIn The estimated additional pay is $257,304 per year. You don't deliver products on your own -- you're usually building one system, one set of components that together make one successful (or unsuccessful) product.You can always, always find ways that make yourself, your manager, and your immediate team much more successful. Do a search for people in those groups in NYC area and check their status to see who is hiring. Continue to do so until you've slapped yourself silly to the point that you're not complaining about how other folks must just be connected or political or adept at the finer art of buttock tongue massage. These guys are typically outcome of recent hiring sprees. . "Well please don't just tease us and leave it there. "This is the lament of every person in every big company everywhere it's usually a combination of truth (most of us are capable of more than the roles we're currently filling) and hubris (if I had a nickel for ever junior person who over-estimated what they were capable of I'd be retired). Embrace whatever people are saying are your flaws. I had an expectation to become principal this year. and hey if it backfires (eg the mgr flips), I can always take the offer at hand and leave MS.thoughts? What to do?The remaining is either a) absorb into other org (say A)b) if A doesn't need testers, then VP will instruct them to find another position in 6 weeks. Ask yourself: what fraction of your job do you actually enjoy? They don't get defensive if their ideas are revealed to have flaws but rather delight in being able to move to a better solution. It's a $1,000-per-minute conversation - you should always have those. I'm not talking about "managing up" (though that helps a little if done properly) but it's all about understanding your manager and skip manager's priorities and proactively succeeding in those areas. Leadership: pro-active leadership that convinces team members of the future direction and even helps to . That manager was (in my and many others' opinions) an incompetent, non-technical "manager" who was incapable of recognizing people's talent and contributions. I have also always looked for those problems (opportunities). The L65 guys are expected to influence outcomes, strategy and best practices on their entire VP level groups. Whether your manager is hardcore or touchy-feely, you need a bulldog to promote you or you ain't goin' nowhere. ?I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. In general, these designations are based on rank, with the highest director position being the executive director or director of operations. Directors are usually senior principals (level 66, 67) or at Partner level. Many folks lurk longer in the 60-62 range because they are not challenged enough to move to the next level. Its, actually, quite a short list. B.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, M.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, PhD in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, Designing and implementing Software and Hardware Systems, Benchmarking and validating Software and Hardware Systems, Developing innovative solutions and publish papers and patents, Managing teams and keep track of progress, Predicting market trends, identifying market risks, Identifying future opportunities, preparing company roadmap. There are not a lot of options at that point. If you want to succeed at Microsoft (or anywhere else where you have a boss), the most important thing you can do is figure out exactly what your management wants from you and then make sure you deliver it in spades.Junior people often make the mistake of thinking this means "I will do my job to the best of my ability" and then they go off and work really REALLY hard at things their management doesn't find nearly as important as they do and so come review time these folks are *shocked* to hear that all of their blood, sweat and tears did not make the impression they'd hoped. Good luck with that. Salman Riaz - Associate Director - S&P Global Market - LinkedIn * Stability at Microsoft is a two-edged sword. Entry level (4,718) Associate (1,976) Mid-Senior level (40,085) One question a manager will think about before promoting you is how many times he had to clean up after you pissed off someone else - especially if it's someone on another team. Titles are important, and dont let anyone make you believe otherwise. Now read over your answer. Would they give you the level if you were not already a Microsoft employee? Go for the team that offers the best package right during the transfer. Sometimes the answer is, "well, we'll see" and other times the answer is, "if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it". You've made 3 mistakes. There were times when I was promoted more slowly than I probably could have been, but I am very happy with where I am now, and I am still growing. If you don't have a manager like that or the manager cannot/will not set clear commits/accountabilities - when the freeze lifts, time for you to look at new areas where you can bring something to the table. I basically lost 5 years of growth due to a bad manager and my own unwillingness to own my career. I'm interested in hearing your stories of success, mentorship, and turning a career that was off-path back on-track. But if you can collaborate with others you can help accomplish much more than youll ever be able to accomplish individually. Promotion budgets of 65 and above has been kept intact.Where did you hear this? Every spec coming to this team had my feedback in it. right? .css-1odorsr{display:-webkit-inline-box;display:-webkit-inline-flex;display:-ms-inline-flexbox;display:inline-flex;-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;font-weight:700;}.css-1ln5qhx{-webkit-text-decoration:none;text-decoration:none;display:-webkit-inline-box;display:-webkit-inline-flex;display:-ms-inline-flexbox;display:inline-flex;-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;font-weight:700;}.css-1dmvvgc{margin:0;color:#0060b9;-webkit-text-decoration:none;text-decoration:none;display:-webkit-inline-box;display:-webkit-inline-flex;display:-ms-inline-flexbox;display:inline-flex;-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;font-weight:700;}Get your salary negotiated .css-1npej63{-webkit-user-select:none;-moz-user-select:none;-ms-user-select:none;user-select:none;width:1em;height:1em;display:inline-block;fill:currentColor;-webkit-flex-shrink:0;-ms-flex-negative:0;flex-shrink:0;-webkit-transition:fill 200ms cubic-bezier(0.4, 0, 0.2, 1) 0ms;transition:fill 200ms cubic-bezier(0.4, 0, 0.2, 1) 0ms;font-size:1.25rem;margin-left:-4px;}or your resume reviewed by the real experts - recruiters who do it daily. Skilled in Surfer 8, MS Project, Primavera, Microsoft Excel, Analytical Skills, Customer Service, Customer Success Management, Vendor Management and Sales. If a spot is available. So here's my 2 cents:Read this now and have a game plan for your 1:1s to tee up a deeper discussion at MYCD. Leaked Salary Spreadsheet Reveals Microsoft Employee Earnings for a also work is good only when it leads to results that typically means team's success. Joanna Reijgersberg-Siew - Senior Director, AI & IoT Practice lead James Chelliah - APAC Head of Finance | Executive Director - LinkedIn In my co-workers case, they overloaded him with work and then documented anything that fell through the cracks until they had enough to get rid of him.I'm sure HR throttles managers when this is going on. Is this a normal situation and should I not be worried? I would lay some level of accountability with management as well, though. Did you triangulate the feedback? Thats a very helpful answer. I'm a level 62 dev trying to get to 63. If the answer for you is "No" and you don't like that, well, what are you going to do? YES, there are people who are awful at all three and still succeed. It sounds fishy. Ill answer first question later in this comment. kc. Contributed and exceeded in two roles - getting G-Star, then moved to another team with clear headroom and again, exceeded all commits and moved to L64. Granted, you have to live in the greater NYC area, but it's a great place to be. It's a knife fight to 63. I'm not looking for any off-topic comments let alone woe-be-me comments - remember that slap thing? I've achieved level 65 in a field technical role and it wasn't that hard. Don't be afraid to ask your manager some very direct questions.Don't force the issue. The estimated additional pay is $257,304 per year. Take it because it plays to your strengths. Thank you for reviewing my profile. To know the real title you have to use headtrax and look for the Standard Title of the position. There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. Thoughts? Microsoft Director level role - Level 66 - what should I expect from COMP sideYOE-15Current TC- 235k But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work. The job is the same, just the levelling differs. Finally, take heart and dont become too discouraged if this is taking a little longer than it seems like it should. What is our competition doing? The general consensus is why get rid of someone who is happy doing their job and can do it better than anyone else. In fact, every boss I've had has told me that I was the most frustrating employee they've ever had, mostly because I ignore half the things they ask me to doAnyhow, here's my advice: do a good job.That's it. First let's set the expectations right for this quarter and possibly the next: The budgets for promos are shrunk almost everywhere. Don't do this point blank and for no apparent reason, but your manager has to be aware that at all times you're working towards your next promo, be aware of your results, be aware of the things you need to do to get there, and make YOU and HIS MANAGER aware of those things. I also agree with the promotion-on-transfer point. Your own work is part of the goal. And when the time comes, putting you up for a promotion to L63 is the first time your boss will be challenged by your skip-level and by your Aunt and Uncles (your boss's peers) about one of your promotions. This employer has claimed their Employer Profile and is engaged in the Glassdoor community. Advice from anyone at Microsoft for 10+ years is great to hear, but hard to follow. I have seen and known many of my own peers who don't get promoted because of potential but the number of people you know in the leadership team. There is a comment about reporting to someone who is the same level as you are. Bowl Leader. Don't make promises to follow up on things and then let them drop. Anyone know how to handle constant Re-orgs. It's also a well-known fact that there is a disparity in levels between Office and now Sinofsky's Windows and the rest of the company, especially below 65 level.About asking your manager and getting their feedback, we're assuming that managers are capable of giving candid feedback. Here's how to find it. mini,time to start a new blog: maybe around current economy and msft. Averages based on self-reported salaries. The second was threat (I have a serious offer outside the company that I am taking). PDG Tebo Terrence O. Richards Sr. PMJF, HKF, LCIP DBM,MScISM - LinkedIn Also known as executive-level, senior-level seniority requires a high level of experience, knowledge and responsibility within a company. You have to enjoy it, or else it'll come across as insincere, and you'll do a half assed job. Also, its important to keep in mind that it is impossible to provide a perfect definition of any level. What worked for me was to go to my manager and say: "I would like to stay here, at Microsoft, working for you. What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. Bottom line is this: It's very easy to find imperfections. If you are not at the top of your stack rank for your level, you will not get the promo. My promotion to 63 came not when I helped my group out of one of their many nightmares but when I helped an uncle. It's an excellent product. You are employed by Microsoft's shareholders. Google Senior Software Engineer Salary: No Limit for a Few Leak of Microsoft Salaries Shows Fight for Higher Compensation They don't survive long while others who do little move up. Nowadays, having been there and moved up, I would highly prefer someone that already succeeded as a Lead at Microsoft than a star individual contributor. )Those are only 3 of many 'soft skills' that will hold most people, even brilliant people, back.Has every level X mastered these skills? Email@ elliereinker@gmail.com | Call@ 330-554-0249. keep in mind mentors are not one size fit's all. Isn't morale over the holidays going to be just wonderful? I'm currently level 66 and started at level 59 (equivalent in old levels) 12 years ago. Much longer if new leadership comes from outside MS. Don't perform flawlessly to the above 70+ pieces of feedback only to see the churn above you. I sat there at L64 for 5+ years. At Microsoft, the levels start at 59 and go beyond 80. At L63 you should be directing v-teams, serving as a lead or possibly even having direct reports. Understand that promos aren't an exact formula. Propose a new one and spend a day in implementing it. The problem is you can't tell if you've done something to piss him off or if he's doing it because he has to. Microsoft senior leadership team under Satya Nadella - CNBC After I became a lead & manager, I was given a team in turmoil after a re-org and straightened that out. If you dont know what exactly an L63 is, how are you able to make promotion discussions in the review meetings?Managers become so defensive when asked what we should be doing to advance. Microsoft Senior Director Software Engineering Manager Compensation Senior Director Global Supply Chain Management transformation Supply Chain Operations SA Juli 2022-Heute9 Monate Lausanne Metropolitan Area Principal Consultant for an international. So I cultivate relationships with my manager's peers; their support helps tremendously. In this scenario, the senior director might have more responsibilities and be in charge of a larger part of the organization than a typical director. As per Microsoft's job posting, the specific position requires over 8 years of experience so it pays high as well. For example, some are principal individual contributors that just stayed for too long in a group and became essential, but now want to move on and cannot do that, either because their skills are obsolete or because they simply cannot go to a new startup team at such high level without any management responsibility, and they are untested managers. Write it down in a team-culture career section you keep in OneNote (start that section now if you don't have it). Sorry for going dark for so long. I also agree with the requests to have a discussion related to 65+.Anyway, I have seen a very healthy discussion going on here, and most of the thoughts I wanted to share have been mentioned. You're in competition with everyone else in your org in your CSP. But that doesn't really help you compete when you don't know what everyone else is doing, particularily if you think you're doing well.Further, it's hard to get specific advice on how to get promoted, due to said black wall. I want them productive and about career success at Microsoft, especially your thoughts about achieving L63. It took him at least two months to integrate. This way I can be in a better position to show that I am a "absolutely!" It's hard for L63. The scope and situations have become more and more challenging over time. similar to maybe how EY says senior manager is Director (pwc, kpmg) equivalent. Avoid long-winded multi-point e-mails, boil down your points as succinctly and efficiently as possible. .css-1uhsr4o{margin-right:8px;}Get Paid, Not Played. Continuously revisit those and discuss with your manager. No, never: now, going back to that <> question above: if your boss is answering "No, never" then this is a red-alert moment for you. Next, make sure your manager values your contributions and surpass their expectations, making yourself invaluable and not immediately replaceable. If you think you will follow the management career path then get in such role as early as possible. And a knife-fight for L65 (some other day). However, the results show that the vast majority of dev/test/pm will make level 63 and in a reasonable timeframe. So most new hires at MS are L63 by default and they obviously don't have to work at it :).I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65.I would not give most of this advice to our campus hires as any kind of roadmap. Asshole managers aren't unknown at Apple [] The fact that you praise someone for "junk yard dog mode" shows me that Microsoft has a fundamentally broken corporate cultureThanks for a nice belly laugh to re-energize my morning. Those people are almost all Level 62's with few prospects. We discussed progress at least once a month. Only 1 of the 4 [sic]s were legitimate. Don't be the roadblock. You might be too smart or have ideas that come from somewhere outside of Redmond which makes you very dangerous and not Microsoft material. He won't answer your questions on what is going on or you get vague answers.All of this in most cases is probably directives from HR. That's the wall you need to talk about, but the discussion would be very different than the L63 bump.And after 5+ years at L64, I finally just left. Given all that, the two things that are key to promotion are:1) Your relationship with your skip level manager. 1. I think talking about level just confuses people as beyond US there is a different level system!L63 in the US is Senior (Level 60 in most of the other countries), well, moving to Senior is not such a big thing if you have experience, with more than 10 years in the industry I was hired at this level, now Senior II is just a matter of continuing contributing but the different comes to Principal (or lead), here is where you need to shine in order to succeed.Recommendation: Work not only towards your commitments but your managers as well As a former L65 (left MSFT about two months ago) I can say you are right on when it comes to understanding where your boss stands. Wish I this post and comments laminated about 10 years ago after I wasn't going to get rich off stock.My comment to add is to those who are put into situations of continual reorgs and want to achieve the 'Senior'. I definitely want to read more soon.Sincerely yoursSteave Markson. Microsoft Jobs and Salary Information | Ladders. You may see lots of other people being jerks around you, but trust me, people remember when you are the nice, dependable, smart one.5. I think that a compentent dev not a superstar, who follows your advice should make it to 63. Jon Tucker - Principal Director - Data & AI - Kainos | LinkedIn Is there any way to get to 63 w/o leaving and coming back? If only your manager knows you then it is unlikely (at least on paper) that you will move beyond L62. You should NOT be looking to get more money to stay in a job you don't like. I know devs who got in at the wrong level and paying the price because they didnt negotiate their level correctly when they joined. Director can be applied to L65 or L66. While cash bonuses stay relatively stable as a percentage of salary over the course of a Microsoft employee's career, stock compensation can rise to nearly 20% of annual income at higher levels, according to the crowdsourced data. It's really not that complicated. I'm at 62, have been for lo, these many years. Amy Hood. No one is born an experienced mgr and even the most experienced mgrs are not perfect. Successful people looooove to expound upon the secret to their success.